BUT spell

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BUT spell

Post by s4t8brett » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:11 pm

I think this would have led to Mogdred turning Helen into a lizard and then disappearing again, leaving Rachel to cast the TRANSFORMATION spell to turn Helen back into herself again.

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Re: BUT spell

Post by Pooka » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:04 pm

Into a lizard? That's very specific; I can't see any indication that that would be the case!

I've always thought it would have been one of four things:

1. This was a final encounter. BUT would have turned Mogdred's sword back on him (ie. he tries to kill them, BUT it doesn't work, or they would use the spell to BUTT his sword back at him). Helen would have gone on to use TRANSFORMATION to retrieve the quest object and win.

2. This wasn't a final encounter. BUT would have turned Mogdred's sword back on him and we would have retreated, only to return in a later room in a final encounter scenario. TRANSFORMATION would then have been deployed (with enough time for Rachel to cast it), either transforming Helen into something able to defeat Mogdred - or transforming Mogdred into something harmless... or even Merlin.

3. TRANSFORMATION was the correct choice, but Rachel didn't spell it out quickly enough, and it was her speed that caused the team's demise.

4. They weren't meant to win. The production team didn't expect them to get that far into Level 3 and a decision was made behind the scenes that Helen shouldn't win as they were the first team of the series. Either spell would have lead to their failure to survive as BUT (which was "quite humble") may not have been powerful enough.

Or there wasn't a plan at all and this is just how it happened! I was going to ask Tim about it at Knightmare Convention, but I doubt he'd have remembered something that specific!
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Re: BUT spell

Post by s4t8brett » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:45 pm

Hi Pooka,

Thank you for sharing your four interesting possibilities.

I would be very surprised if there wasn't a plan, given the detailed rehearsals Tom Hunt has described for different possibilities.

I agree Team 1 were probably deemed too early to win; I suspect Tim decided to make it very hard to win; abstruse but not necessarily impossible. (On reflection, this move might have been better related to making Level 2 harder rather than leaving it this late in the quest.)

I would discount 3. as Treguard said 'what you needed was the shorter spell' - taking it at face value, that is.

1 and 2 are possible but seem more complex to me than what we saw on series 4.

On the other hand, we have a precedent with Mogdred turning McGrew into a toad in Series 3 and Brother Mace being turned into a lizard in Series 4.

Also, in series 4 the magicians gave one spell in Level 3, except for Hordriss 'the confuser', who gave two spells on each occasion. So perhaps we can infer from this that Tim devised these spells for the final encounter room, as we saw in Dickon's quest, as a list of possibilities: eg six quests with two spells for the final encounter from Hordriss and six quests with one spell.

In hindsight, if Treguard had defined winning as all quest objects being retrieved over the season, it might have been easier to sustain an early win, perhaps with some rhetoric about the opposition doubtless upping their game for the rest of the season.

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Re: BUT spell

Post by Canadanne » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:52 pm

Perhaps TRANSFORMATION would have had the same effect as OPPOSITE in Dickon's quest? They might have had a similar life force emergency in the next room after defeating Mogdred, with no food available but a bottle of poison.

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Re: BUT spell

Post by s4t8brett » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:44 am

Yes, possibly, although I think it would be too similar. I think both spells were to be used in the same room, unless of course TRANSFORMATION was never to be used. However 'BUT' on its own doesn't seem at all climactic! I would be surprised if there was meant to be a pun on the 'butt' of the magic sword. It seems to me the team were supposed to use BUT followed immediately by TRANSFORMATION.

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Re: BUT spell

Post by Canadanne » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:33 pm

Well, I imagine that if the "transforming poison" trick had been used in Helen's quest, it then wouldn't have appeared in Dickon's. Just another theory, anyway!

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Re: BUT spell

Post by s4t8brett » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:57 pm

That's correct, undoubtedly. But it seems OPPOSITE has a clearer association with poison (negating it) than does TRANSFORMATION (into what?), which is why I think TRANSFORMATION was for something else - namely, to turn Helen back into herself. Or possibly into a Frightknight.

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Re: BUT spell

Post by DuxBellorum » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:50 pm

It could have been a mishap, or as has been suggested, that the team perhaps weren't expected to get as deep into the Dungeon as they did.

Wer're at this stage BUT no one thought we would be?

While I like the 'Transformation' into a Frightknight suggestion, they didn't appear until series 5.

A Goblin perhaps? Or Reptile?

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Re: BUT spell

Post by s4t8brett » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:06 pm

I'm glad you liked the FrightKnight suggestion, DuxBellorum; in fact they were in Series 4, as Gondrada declares in our question (towards the end of episode 15). Not quite the same as in Series 5, when they were floating around with a mechanical sound, but termed 'FrightKnights' nonetheless.

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Re: BUT spell

Post by DuxBellorum » Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:20 pm

Hadn't remembered that!

I stand corrected, like a man in orthopedic shoes.

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Re: BUT spell

Post by Drassil » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:44 pm

Thanks for reigniting this discussion, Brett. It's good to consider these things afresh every so often.

Pooka wrote:
Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:04 pm
Into a lizard? That's very specific; I can't see any indication that that would be the case!
There is no indication of the likely effect of BUT one way or the other, which is why we're so free to speculate about it. As Brett says, we did see human to lizard metamorphosis elsewhere in Series 4, and we know that Series 4 reused ideas, so it's not unthinkable.

Pooka wrote:
Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:04 pm
They weren't meant to win. The production team didn't expect them to get that far into Level 3 and a decision was made behind the scenes that Helen shouldn't win as they were the first team of the series.
Brett wrote:
Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:45 pm
I agree Team 1 were probably deemed too early to win; I suspect Tim decided to make it very hard to win; abstruse but not necessarily impossible.
A first team win is hard to imagine because not only did we never see one, but we saw 4/8 Team 1s perish on Level 1. Some teams may have had easier quests than others, and a first team win might have been undesirable to the production crew, but I can't quite believe that they would have gone as far as making a quest unwinnable just because it was the first of a series. Surely any team is 'meant to win' if they're good enough and make the right decisions (Christmas notwithstanding)?

Pooka wrote:
Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:04 pm
I was going to ask Tim about it at Knightmare Convention, but I doubt he'd have remembered something that specific!
Yet as we heard in his BBC Radio Norfolk interview days before the convention, Tim did seem to remember the ending of this quest, so he may well have had more to say if he'd been asked. Ironically, he did have one or two overly specific questions put to him at the convention, such as who played the flower seller in Series 5.

Brett wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:06 pm
I'm glad you liked the FrightKnight suggestion, DuxBellorum; in fact they were in Series 4, as Gondrada declares in our question (towards the end of episode 15).
To add to the confusion, the armoured warriors were referred to as frightknights in Series 4 and behemoths in Series 3. Maybe frightknights 'evolve', like Cybermen.

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Re: BUT spell

Post by s4t8brett » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:21 pm

Drassil, you seem to have understood my point of view well regarding the BUT spell encounter! The only Behemoth I know is in the book of Job, which for me doesn't particularly equate to the knight in Series 3 (although you're correct in recalling that Treguard made that connection). In some ways I wish I had had the opportunity to go the convention, although I have no idea whether I would have been available at the time had I known about it beforehand.

It would be useful to know whether Tim would divulge information about memorable quest endings and unused spells etc. - and this might have been put to him already by now, in any case. There might be legal reasons why he cannot, or he might not wanted to get bogged down in detailed questioning from fans. I know in the contract there was recourse to someone in Anglia Television if we didn't think Tim's decision as producer was fair but I don't know if any team went down that route.

I would have thought it quite likely that Tim would remember the main characteristics of each team and quest, and probably has favourite elements from each series - but not, for example, obscure extemporary allusions in the scripts that he wrote in a hurry or who played minor characters without speaking parts (they would likely have been recruited by the director, Jimmy McKinney - e.g. as he recruited Erin Geraghty, so Tim might not necessarily remember background players in places like the Crazed Heifer or Wolfenden).

My impression is that he prefers to keep some mystery, either because he thinks it will prolong interest in the show or because he enjoys it - think of all the cryptic riddles and clues in the show and the name he has chosen by which to identify himself on this forum!

Towards the end of our quest - in fact I think it was just after the last Eye Shield sequence, I asked the floor manager Tom whether there was choice in the Eye Shield (i.e. could you turn left or right at various junctures). His reply was 'There is some choice in the Eye Shield'; answers like that would not necessarily give us the clarity we might like, even if we got them! (True, you can choose precisely when to 'hold up the Eye Shield', but that seems pretty trivial, and I can't think of any other choice, given that it was a simple, linear video sequence).

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Re: BUT spell

Post by Mystara » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:01 pm

I would have thought it quite likely that Tim would remember the main characteristics of each team and quest
I'm fairly sure he remembers very little of the specifics.
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Re: BUT spell

Post by wombstar » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:57 pm

I can see how Transformation might have been used to Transform a rotten apple to a fresh one if they wanted to go down that route, but we also saw in later seasons the dungeonner transform to defeat lord fear so it could also have been that.

"But" more than likely would have deactivated the magic sword, maybe they gave them to word but knowing it wasn't clear what it did and knowing the team and i suspect most people giving the choice would go for what appears to be more useful, the Transformation spell.

I can't help but think had they used it they would still have been killed off, with some response that they needed to transform themselves or the sword.

One of KM many mysteries i doubt we'll ever know, or it might be very simple and we'll over thinking it.

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Re: BUT spell

Post by s4t8brett » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:52 am

"But" could have stopped the magic sword (I wouldn't have thought there was intended to be a wordplay on 'butt' but you never know) and then the Transformation spell could have turned Mogdred into - say a lizard. However, he was blocking the obvious exit - although Treguard could have directed them off to the left, past the gallows.

I would have thought that would have been easier to implement than my earlier suggestion of Mogdred having second thoughts and turning Helen into a lizard because then you're removing the image of Mogdred and replacing it with the lizard, rather than changing Helen while also having Mogdred superimposed from the second blue room. It also has a stronger sense of victory, in the same way Dickon's team overcame Malice.

I don't think they would have been 'killed off' had they chosen 'But' first. In fact I seem to recall the Adventurer's Code stating that sometimes we would be given more than one spell and have to choose the order carefully.

You could argue that they were given hints as to the correct spell in that Hordriss referred to 'But' as more 'humble' and then Mogdred said 'You are too proud' when Helen was on the bridge. However it seems to me there was no precedent for *needing* to heed such hints in Knightmare 1-3, so the team could be forgiven for thinking they had simply navigated across the collapsing bridge and that was it. I would say a similar thing happened to the team in Series 3 who cast the 'DANCE' spell and didn't think to dispel it - there was no precedent and they were just thinking about making their exit, making progress. After all, Treguard did his best to hurry us all along to keep the viewing good! And for that matter, I think within our team we realised it was Merlin in the stocks (and that's what we were saying to each other as we re-entered the green room after filming that scene) so perhaps we thought it was too trivial to no need to be verified with another character in the game.

If the first team had won, I would have thought the production team would have made the rest of the series significantly tougher by any means they could implement!

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